S.ph.s,

     Calm down, no one is asking you to stop your ranting.  It's funny because you're the one that said last week that this was your last post, so it looks to me like you are a bit confused.  It's funny how you gloat over having the ability to "speak freely" yet if it were up to you Iraq would still be under the brutal dictatorial control of Saddam where freedom of speech was non-existent.  People in Iraq who spoke out against the dictatorship were carried off by the secret police the middle of the night never to be seen again.  Remember the mass graves we found with 300,000 dead Iraqi's? You lived in Iran many years back, so you of all people should be supporting our efforts in Iraq so that their people could have the same freedom to speak their minds as you do.  Your blatant hypocrisy is clear for everyone to see. 

You accuse Cocconibs of "going after the player rather than the ball", yet you resort to vile personal attacks over and over. For example, you call Cocconibs Cocconuts, you call me a NeoCon and tell me and others to "get your head out of your a$$", you call me "clinically lobotomized", or tell me I'm not living in "the real world"...  I mean really S.ph.s, so many of your posts are riddled with personal attacks it's amazing that you would even bring this up.  Another example of your hypocrisy is your statement that Cocconibs is my "mommy" or vice versus because we both oppose your views, yet it's perfectly normal for you and Bela to oppose our views without earning any kind of parenting titles.   This as well as your far fetched theories about 9/11 are why you cannot be taken seriously. You need some serious help there bud,

Jeff

oooh u really needed that one badly, didnt ya'....ok, i'll give u that one Jeff, because obviously i've been a little harsh in a few of my comments to u....u've been pretty fair to me....& fair in general, & it would only be unfair of me not to recognize the differences of the tones between u & i.......so if i said anything that may have hurt ur feelings, then i truely apologize!

Mind u, im also a little sorry for the fact that my comments have NOT been understood in their original intents...as just some sarcastic & humoristic remarks in the heat of the debate!

i dare say, in the final analysis none of my so-called "verbal attacks" against u or even cocnibs, came from consciencely sinister motives.....as opposed to Coconibs's comments, which in turn were designed to be nothing but cruel & mean.....So from that p.o.v. my conscience is clean, because however wrong my actions may have been, i certainly did NOT deserve those last comments given by her....anyways lets just forget it.....im over it myself, & i hope u are.....i even hope Coconibs is! 

Cheers.

Haha. You asked (ranted at) me,

"I am almost certain by what I've seen on your posts that you are-like the armchair politician, the reformed smoker-you talk the talk, but I doubt you walk the walk LMAO  I'm doing much more to foster my beliefs, etc. "than posting on a mystic forums board".  How many State Senators have you met with? (Cocco=2) State Representatives? (Cocco=1) addressing issues that are important?  How many charities do you volunteer your time with in addition to working full time, studying, homeschooling etc?  (Cocco=3)  And if there were more than 24 hours I'm sure I could find some more to do.

And on top of all this, I can still find the nano-seconds needed to respond to your blather :D

C"

***A truly Christian response - NOT***

But you don't want replies. But I replied:

"How can we compete with with somebody so totally bodalicious? I mean I only know three representatives personally. My husband and I have only founded one non-profit NGO for under-served children and participate in two others, and I only give to MoveOn, ACLU, ASPCA and people who ask. And besides that I only know 188 illegal aliens, 24 outlaws, four Martians and partridge in a pear tree"

You replied:

""Somehow, I doubt your husband wants to hear anymore from you than I do. ***Then why did you ask?**

I'm sorry you are so devoid of self appreciation and affection from others that you are so desperate for attention here.

You have no love so I doubt you will see the light"

Not only do your politics stink, but so does your intuition - ROLMAO, you who are so full of love and light would understand Oh, and your presence here is because you are so beloved?

Glad I'm not you!  But glad you are -- better you than me

Keep making your posts unanswerable -- ask questions and then don't allow replies -- good policy - goes along with your loving persona.  

A Christian response? Who said I was Christian?  And I don't think I asked you anything, least of all a re-post.

Look at how you attack:

"Your politics stink"

"Your intuition stinks"

blah blah blah.

You are so full of hate for anyone that doesn't cow down to you, it's pathetic.  I locked the replies so I would stop getting flooded w/ emails-as the instructions said to do-but here you are again.

Try reading The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.  Maybe then you will see why your opinions about me, my politics, etc really don't matter.

You put ROLMAO LOL, etc. as if you are trying to tell yourself you are amusing.  Nope.

You have no love-you will not see the light.  I think that statement is pretty to the point.

C

I've never once attacked-only responded-infact, I don't think I had responded to you or belawood initially but to Jeff's post..  Re-read the posts-where you have done nothing but been insulting-to me, my country, etc. and why? Because you cannot force your will on someone else.

Here's a book for you to see if you can get your hands on-not sure if it is widely published:

The Anatomy of Peace.  It was put out by the Arbinger Institute.  If you can't find it-I would gladly send you mine, which is an advance uncorrected-but the points are there.

C

Sinister motives?  Cruel? Like the playground bullies-you can dish it out, but you cant take it! I've merely responded kind for kind.

I'm still trying to figure out why this discussion was ever on the mystic board-but no one can answer me that one....

Projection is a powerful motivator eh Coco?

I'm afraid your "love and light" are being eclipsed. But not all is lost. There is hope for everyone. Even Bush and Osama.

Good luck 

Since it's now highly fashionable to "lock" our own posts(from outside intruders), im forced to reply to my own post here....:-))

But im not going to comment anything any longer because obviously we're playing CRAZY on the highest key in this topic right now.....LOL....

i'd like to however point out, that this topic was NOT started by me, so i honestly dont know why this topic was started in the 1st place! Personally i see nothing wrong with that, but thats just me.

Anyways...take care u all.....

PEACE.

:-)

i want u to have a good day Coco...

Infact i sincerely hope that u live a full & happy life......& i mean it!

Best Regards,
/cherto

Cherto,

This topic started because James Bond said that the USA had the best of everything including health care, or something like that, and I responded with datum that showed us #38 in life expectancy and #1 in cost of health care. These threads can get confusing for sure. OK, like somebody smart says, "Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things".

PS I came to this planet to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.  

In my absence, it seems  things have spun out of control. Nay, it seems it began to spin out of control even before that, it has only peaked in the last while.

I believe I will retract my opinion of 'The U.S.' being the cause of world woes, or modern war. It is not the 'US' who is contributing or not contributing to anything, it is the people who are or are not. Who initiates War? The country? or the Leader? Who can prevent war, prevent famine, prevent crime? The People, or the Country? A country would not be a country without the people.

The United States as a Country is made up of the people. The 'US' is not George Bush, Canada is not Stephen Harper. The US, and Canada, and any country that is not being clenched with an Iron grip by militants, or Brutal Tyrants, is made up, and run, by the people, the "average Joe". It is the Leaders who 'Represent' the people, and their desires, not 'Embody' them. Keep in mind, even the people of the highest power and influence, can be required to do things they may not wish to do, if they are forced to by certain circumstances.

When we are to refer to a country, or a leader of a country, as the thing that initiates, or causes rather, a war, or a country crippling condition, we are really placing any blame on the people who do nothing to prevent the person from attaining the power to do these things. This does not mean 'oust' the current individual. It means restrict the capability, in certain situations, of the individuals. It means make a person atone for their crimes, if indeed they are crimes.

We think of the world as 'Countries, not 'The World'. This creates world separation. Our 'Pride' of Self. Pride is good, but it should be only placed upon things which are good, or for good, for it to actually BE good.

The military itself, the ones who fight and lose their lives in war, the ones who must witness first-hand the atrocities of violence, to the utmost degree, consists of able men and woman who wish to do the bidding of their officers, in the "service of their Country", who must do the bidding of theirs, and so forth, until we reach the top of the chain. But whom is it that gives these individuals at the top of the chain the power in the first place, despite the the knowledge that any war, or anything that takes advantage of others, when not conducted in a proper manner, or time, or for the right reasons, will only cause more problems, and conditions that ultimately trump any other; chaos, sorrow, pain; despite the knowledge of their crimes.

But enough of pointing to the 'US', or its leaders, or even its people. Who else lives on this earth and does nothing? even though these things effect the world as a whole? The other countries, its leaders, and its people.The people do not enjoy the thought of violence, and rightly so. But this does not mean it should be ignored when it does occur. At the mere mention of War, most immediately shift the subject to something else, or ignore the comment or conversation altogether. This is the type of action, or inaction, in times of crisis, that should be avoided. An 'Ostrich Effect'

But when we do speak of it, it is never in earnest and friendly banter. It is always "I'm right, you're wrong", such is being done here, and in the end, nothing was gained except for more separation. If enough people do this, we have entire countries not uniting themselves to solve a problem, but dividing themselves. Since when does a house get built be the individual alone? If it does, it is most certainly not done easily, and with little pain, sweat and tears.

The world is being run by the Individual. The leaders get together, behind closed doors, and discuss a plan. If there are 100 countries (Just to use a random number as an example, I do not know the actual), with a leader to each, there will be a total of 100 minds, or souls, contributing to a solution. This number is an assumption based on the assumption that they all actually  'Work Together'. Imagine the capability of 6 Billion + Working together, and not just opposing everyone else.

Imagine for a second, the potential we would have if everybody did not oppose each other, but actually discussed what won't work, and why, and what would work, and why.

The soldiers are indeed very brave for risking their lives to bring peace. But blind obedience does not bring anything but trouble in the end; it creates a jaded view of the causes of problems; it creates a view the the leader wants, not the actual. Peace keepers essentially do the same thing as a military unit such as the United States', but for different reasons; a different intent. The war has turned to a different task since it did in the beginning; peace, not violence, although sometimes violence is required as a secondary notion to bringing peace, when all other options are exhausted. But the 'Original Intent' was not one of peace, and there are always consequences to every action; Action and reaction, Karma, whatever you may call it.

Whether nuclear weapons, Oil, or to stop a Civil or Holy War, there are other options which should have been attempted before-hand.  Even if the leaders could not come up with an alternative, they assumed they were the only ones with the ability to come up with  a solution, and so kept things silent until they could no longer do so (War tends to make public eye very quickly and easily, although the truth and intent may not be actually known until a later date, when it can no longer be hidden), and then when things go awry, and one of those individuals, or a group of individuals who were left out of the original loop come up with a solution that would have worked at the time, we wonder where we went wrong.

As an example, if North Korea indeed requires power to run their nation, and is turning to Nuclear power for various reasons, why not, instead of Saying just 'Stop it or Else', the richer  countries could offer an alternative. If they still refuse, and cannot come up with a good reason why, then they are obviously not using it for the sole purpose of Power. It is in these kind circumstances, or reactions to a request, that can tell a lot of intent.   But when they say no, we 'assume' ill intent, on the sole basis that they simply said no to a simple request. And obviously you cannot ask if they intend ill intent, without an automatic reply of  "Of course not". So you find other ways of determining intent, ways which will almost always shed truth on the situation. The right question, in the right context, at the right time can almost always provide the answers one is seeking. If at all possible, true information should be gathered and verified before an assumption is made. And sometimes there doesn't need to be loads of information on something before it can be deemed the truth. Truth speaks for itself, and shows itself when certain conditions are met, even if they are only minor conditions.

Jeff, I would say you are holding up very well amid hostility, much of which is not completely well-founded. Your view is automatically rejected without consideration for the position and view you are in. But you are also not taking consideration for the entire picture, the things that are directly or indirectly linked with the cause of this war; you only see the war and its Direct and/or immediate causes. I admit that I was jumping to conclusion about many of your views, although not all of my views, or everyone else's, were completely unfounded.

Obviously as being American, amid an American crisis, you will have certain views. And obviously others who are not American, will have their own opinion, based on their position and view. But in order to come up with a solution, the must have consideration for both parties involved. And for cooperation, both parties must be open-minded towards the others view. I believe this is in direct correlation with 'Empathy'.

So, enough with the separation, let us attempt to come together and devise a solution. We discuss over and over who is right, and who is wrong. Does anybody see us, or any other group of people getting anywhere with this attitude? BOTH parties must assume an empathetic stance to be able to see the others views; let go of Pride, for the sake of peace. It has a better use elsewhere.

u had many good points in ur post Craven.....maybe TOO MANY....LOL....because obviously i've forgotten more than ½ of them already....;-)

Maybe next time u could devide ur posts into 2 or more parts, so that they'll be easier to digest....etc...etc...

Anyways, i'd like to just say 1 thing about that last part of ur post about mutual empathy.....the fact that there are many soldiers in Iraq right now, who'd rather NOT be there if it were upto them....i call that "being empathetically willing to listen & DO what the the opposing party says".....dont u?

i also call those Iraqies who are generally against the presence of the Americans in Iraq, but still chose to live their own lives in peace & harmony with the their "opponents"....i call that "being empathetically willing to listen &....."....

There is A LOT of this being done by many of the ppl who generally oppose Bush policies......but very hardly, u'll see anyone from the other side "being empathetically........." .....infact they have absolutely NO respect for them, & they will call them the most disgraceful & outragious names possible, making sure that they all become somehow marginalized & thereby out of the way.

So ask Jeff, if he can give u examples of incidents wherein he TRUELY tried to listen to the opposite side....& ONLY listened without trying to find a new explanation to the same arguements?! 

And also another thing i wanted to tell u about the points u made about the people, and how countries are made up of their people, therefore they are the ones who have the power, etc.......are u actually holding the ordinary ppl as accountable for the current world situation?? u need to explain that one a little better, thank u very much, because i find myself in total disagreement of that statement! The people in this case, are being manipulated....their "fear" is a direct bi-product of manipulations done by both sides of the conflict....imho.

Dear Cherto,

I think Craven was correct in that assessment. In the I Ching, hexagram 18, it says, "Public officials intuitively know the minds of the people they serve. If the attitudes of the people are lax, if they are willing to sacrifice the long-term good for short-term gain, then public officials will represent them accordingly. If in their inner attitudes the people are firm in what is correct, public officials will know how they must govern; regardless of the form of government, evil finds its basis in the weaknesses of the people. When the people are strong in their inner direction, and firm in their attitudes, evil in government, and in society can find no place in which to grow." 

This does not mean that a child who has a bomb dropped on him from 43,000 feet is responsible for his own death or suffering. It means the people as a majority (or in this case in the US, a minority) are. As long as people honor dominance and obedience then that is what we'll have. When they honor peace and equality then that is what we'll have.

Anyway, that's the way I see it

PS Thanks for your input 

So ask Jeff, if he can give u examples of incidents wherein he TRUELY tried to listen to the opposite side....& ONLY listened without trying to find a new explanation to the same arguements?!

I am not taking sides. This situation obviously needs a mediator, and I have decided to step up to the plate. There are some points that are agreed on, but the stance that most have taken in this discussion, Jeff, and others included,  is not an open minded one. It has turned into a battle of wills, or rather, of words. Stop war with hate? stop war with the lashing of tongues? I must say that this is not a solution to problems, and in fact only perpetuates bad will.

And also another thing i wanted to tell u about the points u made about the people, and how countries are made up of their people, therefore they are the ones who have the power, etc.......are u actually holding the ordinary ppl as accountable for the current world situation?? u need to explain that one a little better, thank u very much, because i find myself in total disagreement of that statement! The people in this case, are being manipulated....their "fear" is a direct bi-product of manipulations done by both sides of the conflict....imho.

 Yes, I am holding ordinary people accountable, but not to the degree that it seems you have taken my comment. As Bela mentioned "Public officials intuitively know the minds of the people they serve. If the attitudes of the people are lax, if they are willing to sacrifice the long-term good for short-term gain, then public officials will represent them accordingly. If in their inner attitudes the people are firm in what is correct, public officials will know how they must govern; regardless of the form of government, evil finds its basis in the weaknesses of the people. When the people are strong in their inner direction, and firm in their attitudes, evil in government, and in society can find no place in which to grow."

Tell me, do you think that the people do not have the capability of preventing these world debilitating conditions? When a company is doing wrong to the public, what is the method used to stop it, even if it is not direct, like ending the life of, or ousting the leader? Boycotting. I do not propose the people boycott a country. I am saying that, in any historical event that has changed the world for the better, it was initiated by the people. Not the presidents, not the prime ministers... the people. Inaction is just as bad as Action in times of strife. The people cry, the people worry, they discuss amongst themselves of the wrongs. But aside from the few rallies by a small majority of the people, there is more people sticking their heads in the sand, or flapping their lips, but doing nothing. What the world needs is Unity; there is strength in numbers when it comes to peace. Even the lowly and the meek can help change the world for the better. The power of one voice cannot be heard amidst the throngs of thousands, but the power of many can change the world.

As far as people being manipulated, they are manipulated by their own greed. The world revolves around greed, and the leaders take advantage of that. The majority of the people put the shackles on their own wrists, and hand the chains to the taskmaster, when all the while, he grins knowingly. The people fear what they do not understand, they fear power, yet they crave it at the same time. We live our lives the way we do, because the majority only wishes to live their own lives, working, eating, sleeping, enjoying family-time etc. But in the end, all of these apathetic individuals, who only wish to be left alone, are dragged into the conflict, not by choice, but because war eventually effects everybody.

 
The soldiers are not to blame. they must do as they are ordered to; they must live within a very strict set of rules. And if the military disbands at a time like now, then the enemy will strike without remorse, and we will fall... hard.

The leaders are not to blame; how can a handful of men who must work within a very strict set of rules do anything outside of these rules? If the Leaders disband, the world will crumble into Chaos and disorder.

And so we have only one more party who can effect the outcome of this war, or any conflict; The people. They need to work within a strict set of rules, but there are so many loopholes in Law, that they have a considerable amount of leverage and capability. This is how things have changed before, and this is how things will change again. The people allow themselves to be cowed. Freedom of Speech anyone? The pen is mightier than the sword.

I have mixed feelings about the media, which does effect this whole situation. We bash the media for obscuring the Truth, for lying to the public, but perhaps it is because the people can't handle the truth in their present state of mind? Of course, the media is only making matters worse, because when it does come time for the war to expand more prominently outside its country of origin; when it begins to effect the people in a more direct way, they will not be prepared for the horrors to come. "I do not WANT to know what happens over there, thank you very much. I am perfectly happy living my life as I live it now, without these extra worries"

Ignorance IS bliss.